Med school to residency-ready: expert advice for a successful match

Episode Transcript

Recorded live from the Cook booth at SIR and featuring leading experts in the field of interventional radiology discussing a wide range of IR-related topics, this is the Cook@ SIR Podcast Series.

Welcome to today’s episode of Cook@ SIR. We are live in Nashville, Tennessee. If you’re a medical student or a resident eager to break into IR, this podcast is for you. We’re diving into the residency application process and sharing some expert strategies to help you match. I’m your host, Linzi Webster. I’m a PGY-III at Mount Sinai, and I’m joined by Dr. Arslan, a seasoned IR expert and program director, and Dr. Ozen, which, same, also a program director, and they both have firsthand experience navigating this journey and making it to that attending status. To kick things off, let’s hear from both of you. Can we talk a little bit about your backgrounds and what led you to where you are today?

Merve, you want to get started?

Yes. Hi, everyone. My name is Merve Ozen. I’m an interventional radiologist at Mayo Clinic Arizona. I trained with Dr. Arslan. I’m not a program director; I’m an international medical graduate, and I was passionate for interventional radiology and packed my bags, moved to the States to work with Dr. Arslan about nine years ago. I’ve been an attending for five years now.

And I’m currently running the Rush IR program. We have become a department, actually; I’m the chair, interim chair, and before that ,I was a division director and I actually served as a program director for the fellowship for a few years. And our transition to the residency was done with Dr. Turba, who’s the current program director in our institution.

Awesome. Let’s start with the big question, right? Why IR? How did you find it, and how did you know it was a specialty you wanted to pursue?

Okay, I’ll start with this.

I was—

Oh, go ahead.

Okay, go ahead.

I was going to say that the reason I went into IR is, long time ago, when I was in medical school, I actually, I wasn’t kind of the most reading student, but I liked to investigate, and I looked up one of my patient’s options in journals, et cetera, and angiography and embolization for a GI bleed was an option. So, I brought that up, and you’re going to find out how old I am when I say that, but my professor kind of made fun of me, saying that, “Don’t be silly, that doesn’t exist here, maybe in one hospital, et cetera.” I felt a little bit bad, obviously, and I was like, the way that she put it, “Okay, I’m going to do this.” And then I researched it more, and it was IR, and after finishing medical school that I put myself onto this journey.

Wow. For those of you that are medical students, at least at our institution, if someone has a GI bleed, the first thing they go is to CTA so we can see who should take care of them, IR versus GI. Dr. Ozen, do you want to share your experience in finding IR?

Yes. I was always looking for a minimally invasive specialty, but IR was not one of the rotations or electives, so one of my vascular surgery residency friends introduced me to interventional radiology, and until then, I didn’t find any other specialty that exciting, so I was very lucky to know him and I was very lucky to find this specialty, because it’s been life-changing for me. And that’s why I would like to create different electives for medical students so they can get to know IR, spend time in IR and see if this is what they’re looking for.

That’s incredible. I feel like a lot of us find IR by accident.

Yeah.

For me, I was assigned, supposed to be assigned to a primary care clinic to learn how to do a physical exam, but they ran out of primary care clinics, so in my medical school my first year, I was assigned to an IR clinic with Dr. Bercu, who’s still there, and it was the most thrilling thing, because to learn a physical exam, you try to see all different types of patients, and that’s exactly what IR provides. So I was able to see and feel the ascites that you wouldn’t necessarily see in a regular clinic. And then I was blown away. It is truly surgery without a scalpel. Awesome.

If I may add one thing, though. In my experience, and because we have initially struggled about IR’s recognition, when I started IR as a resident, 90% of the doctors didn’t know what IR was in the hospital. Now pretty much all of them know; now we’re trying to get the patients to know IR. Also, from the medical student perspective, we used to do medical student awareness events, et cetera, just to let them know that there’s a specialty like IR. And currently, we have something called Rush Explorer in my institution for medical students, M1s and M2s, and IR has, I think the person current—like they have 12 or 14 quotas. It’s always full, so I get medical students, M1s—I have like four of them this year—they come as teams. They go like, “Oh no, we couldn’t get into the IR Explorer.” It’s like, “Is there any way we can?” We’re always welcoming them, so I think that IR’s awareness is in a good place right now.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

My life goal is teaching my family what IR is. If I can teach my mom, I can teach anyone.

I love it. To your point, people are now knowing about IR, right? Other doctors know about IR, medical students are finding it early, and that means now that the residency application process is getting really competitive. From your perspective, what do you think are the most common challenges, one or two, that these students are facing, to match? And then, Dr. Arslan, we’d like to hear about the ratio of med students to resident spots and other background facts that some of our listeners might not know about the match into interventional radiology?

So, coming out of medical school, I think the current match, we had the highest match, over 200, 203, or I don’t know the exact number, but somewhere in that range, within 200 and 210 matches to international radiology integrated program. And, unfortunately, the applicants were over 400, approximately 450, so it’s a very competitive match. We don’t have enough programs. I believe, personally, that we need more positions. It’s slowly going up about 6, 10% every year. The available number of resident spots are—integrated resident spots—are going up. And there are also independent pathway, you know, one or two a year, depending on if you have done ESIR or not. If you have done ESIR, it’s one year; if you haven’t, it’s a two-year pathway, which makes the whole training program up to seven years, so that’s kind of challenging.

It’s like neurosurgery.

Yeah. And that one is, I think that pathway is relatively easier to match, because it doesn’t fill in completely. I believe the job market is very open for both diagnostic radiology and interventional radiology, but having to have additional years of training when you can go back to life with all the medical schools, et cetera, kind of makes things different for people. So, I do recommend integrated approach, and then, hopefully, we’ll get more and more positions for that.

Awesome. Dr. Ozen, what do you think? What do you think the most common challenges are for students trying to match?

I think one of the most common challenges is not knowing how to build their CV, and when to start. So, starting very early gives you a lot of advantage. You can introduce yourself to the society, you can find mentors—because in the beginning, you may not be able to find mentors directly, so it will take time to find a mentor—and start doing volunteering or research activities, because you need to show that you’re different and you want to dedicate yourself to this specialty and you want to make sure you do a little bit more than other applicants. So I think it’s important to show that you can think outside the box and you can do anything to make this application strong.

Yeah. Say from my own experience, I’m the first one in my family to go to college, so I feel like I stumbled into a lot of things with a lot of fortune and, like, hearing what other people are saying, and I remember, my first day in clinic, my IR attending was like, “You have to join the medical student council. That’s how you’re going to get connected.”

Yes.

I was able to join the reserves, and that at least put me into the pulse. I could get some of the email notices. I started to learn about the research opportunities, research awards—even have awards for med students to get a little money to come to SIR—so I think that kind of started things for me.

And it feels like a family, right, and you feel like you’re working toward something bigger and you’re part of a group. And it really motivates the medical students, so thank you for everything you do, and congratulations.

Thanks, thanks. And it honestly becomes that way. So, your first SIR, it was so intimidating, all these fancy attendings that know what they’re doing, and I was here as a med student, but come, because it gets so much better.

Just do it. Just do it. Come, and everybody’s very friendly. If anybody’s listening to the podcast from medical, as a medical student, please don’t get intimidated. Reach out. Come and say hi. Nobody’s going to judge you or be bad to you, so just do it, just like you said. I highly encourage everyone.

We essentially were in your shoes. And then, you listening to this podcast shows dedication to start with, so we’re going to keep giving you some clues that’s going to put you ahead of the others who are not listening, okay?

Absolutely.

Exactly.

To say you’re that motivated medical student, you did a little bit of research, you did a little bit of leadership, you did that little bit of volunteering, you did okay on your step—you don’t have to do amazing, but you did okay on it—so now you got that interview. When it comes to interviewing, what are the things that you’ve seen from those superstar students in interview that left a strong, lasting, really positive impression on you, that made you say, “I want to work with that person”?

For me, it was the passion in their eyes. They come into the room with an energy that they want to do this. And when they’re talking about interventional radiology, you can see their eyes are opening, and I ask them, “What made you choose IR?” and they describe this procedure with so much excitement, and I know that this is going to go towards … throughout their career. I think most people worry about their CVs, but the first impression is so important and it can overcome most of the things that they think as negative. Just know what you want when you’re going in an interview—”I want this specialty. I want this department.”—and just show that. Show that with an energy, because when you’re very reserved, maybe you’re intimidated or shy in the beginning, you can’t really be yourself and show how much you want something, so just work on that and show us that you really want this specialty and you want to work with us.

I love that.

I’m going to go a little bit more detail and give out some secrets. I know the name is IR/DR Residency, but if you are thinking about doing DR, this is not a specialty for you. And I may be criticized for saying that, but this is what works for us. This specialty could only be formed in this way because of a lot of logistical issues in the very higher-up level, so a dedicated IR-only specialty could not be formed. It was either going to be nothing or this. In our institution we want to train the future IRs that’s going to take IR to next level. And thinking about that way, DR is an important part of your training, and then we will provide that to you, because the more, the better you are in imaging, the better you are in image-guided interventions.

I’m not dismissing that at all, but we’re hoping to train IRs who’ll practice 100% IR and take the specialty further, and that is one thing that we look at on interviews. And the other thing is dedication to the field. Obviously, the things that you mentioned earlier, on your CV, if you have been involved in SIR, if you’ve been involved in other kind of administrative stuff and published stuff or presented, et cetera, and you want to start that as early as possible. One of the persons that we matched this year, he came to me as an M1, he’s done multiple abstracts, et cetera—

Superstar.

It’s like, yeah, superstar. There’s no way we weren’t going to take him. And so, the other thing that changed over the years is, we used to get people who would rotate with us as a medical student, in 2015 to ’20, because there were few people rotating with us, and if someone came in early, rounded with us at six a.m. and left at the end of the day, amazing. This person is kind of for us, it’s like, but now we have over 30 people rotating with us in a year.

And how many spots do you have at your program?

We have four only. Hopefully, we’re going up to five or six next year.

Wow. Thirty.

But you have four of us, 30 coming in, it’s become, even—but if somebody hasn’t been to us at all, then their chances are obviously—so whatever program you’re interested in, make sure you spend time with them and you get familiar with the faculty over there. With the residents too, because residents are part of our selection committee. Their input is very important. They talk to these medical students a lot more than we do, and so having some connections in that level is also essential.

I love something that you said, just to—something I get a lot from medical students is like, “How do I shine on this rotation?” because the way everyone talks about being in an interview, “Come early, stay late,” but sometimes when you get there, you’re like, “Now that I’m here early and now that I’m staying late, what do I do in this time? How do I make sure that they see my enthusiasm? How do I make sure I’m not doing too much or too little?” Do you have any basic dos and don’ts for those med students when they come into your angio suit? Like, something you expect of them and you think that a fourth year should do?

If you really want to shine, look at the schedule for the next day, read about the cases. Even—any knowledge that is kind of presented during a case or during a morning discussion, et cetera, because we ask questions all the time to residents, and we may start with the medical student. If there is some spark, some knowledge in there, that’s like, “Wow, this woman is amazing, this guy knows what he’s doing,” et cetera. And it stays with us. I mean, I usually remember people when I ask a question and I get an answer that I wasn’t expecting. That’s very good. And then to do that, you need to get involved during the procedure—we do about 30 procedures a day—

Wow.

…so, if you’re doing about five, six cases yourself, running from room to room, and then always visible to the attending—especially complicated ones. Simple ones are important if you want to spend time with the resident and then get their awareness, but if you want to get exposure to the attendings, it’s usually when the cases are more challenging—and you go in and help, keep the table clean, et cetera, hold the wire, be visible, introduce yourself. Don’t be shy. “Hey, Dr. Arslan, my name is so-and-so. I’m with you this month.” It’s not a kind of a bad thing; it’s always a good thing. It show that you’re also open and you take initiative.

Dr. Ozen, what do you want to add to that?

I want to add that introducing yourself to techs and nurses will give you a lot of advantage, because they know all the tips and tricks. They know the doctors before you, so they will help you to shine, and you’ll be friends with them and you can go and help them prep the table, learn how to prep the table, learn about the wires or basic things that we use and how to prepare the patient. You can do an ultrasound scan for an IJ access, get familiar with the ultrasound, so be friends with the team, everyone in the team, not just— don’t just focus on the attendings, and be part of the team.

And you’re the newest kind of member of IR, so what was your strategy?

So I—it’s funny—I’m one of those people where I’m initially really nervous to speak up, but once I speak up, the dam breaks and I will introduce myself too much. At my own institution, I think I reintroduced myself to the same person three times until they were like, “I know your name.” But I always got there early. I think that just helped me review the board. And sometimes when I study, I need to look at it a couple of times, so I would get there early so I could look at the cases again and just look up in my IR handbook exactly what we were doing. And then, I talk to the techs a lot. After a case I’d say, “Hey, they were doing something on the CRM, and how does this thing even move?” and they would help me learn the basics of the knob, so like, “How do I turn off the fluoro alert timer that’s buzzing in the background and in a critical moment? How do I actually wind up this microwire and not break it?” So, kind of stepping in and looking for those opportunities for how I could be helpful without being so gung ho that I accidentally do something that would be detracting from the case, I think, was kind of my first steps. And I used the opportunity of rotating in my home institution before I did an away to learn a lot of those skills and do my faux pas first there.

Yeah, no, no, that’s wonderful. That’s actually—before away rotation, being ready is very smart, because once you go in, if you’re totally clueless, they’ll still like you, the behavior is important, but if you already are at a step up, you know, you know how to load the wires—

Put a torque on.

Exactly.

What is a torque?

Yeah, yeah—

It helps.

That’s very important, I’m glad you mentioned that.

Yeah. I will, like, go to—

From—

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, go ahead.

I was going to say, if your home—a lot of people don’t have a home institution IR, so even if you don’t have that thing, if there’s something local, the IR community’s incredibly responsive, even shadowing for a couple of days, you can pick up a lot of those tips, tricks, and the names of the tools.

I think as attendings in the departments, we have the role to get to know the medical students too, so in our department, we send out an email before the medical students visit, with their names and their backgrounds, so even before they come to us, we know their names and we know what to ask them and get to know each other.

I love that idea. I feel like I need to bring that to my—I want all of the residents to know who are the med students are coming in. Normally we just see them at lecture and we’re like, “Oh, hi. Welcome.” Awesome.

Getting back to process questions, How have you seen the residency application process change? And when you see research and—strengthening a residency application—how do you weigh it, and how can medical students decide what they should devote their time to when it comes to research? Dr. Ozen?

That’s a great question. I think an application is a combination of multiple things. Having just research or having just volunteering experience, or just—don’t focus on one thing, make sure that you’re a well-rounded person. Of course, when you see a radiographics article, AJR article, you’re very impressed, but if you have those type of articles, make sure you’re prepared to answer any questions related to those articles. And whenever I see an article with a doctor that I already know, I may give them a call and ask them, “How did they do? Are they—they were really involved with the research, or they did minimal work?” So, make sure you put the work, and when you create your CV, everything you did must be really something you did.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I agree. It’s like nowadays, most of the—so, it’s a process, right? It’s like an elimination process. Everyone is a candidate at the beginning. There are certain things that we look at—and I’m giving this clue again, as I promised earlier—your scores are important. That gets you kind of at a certain level, but that’s usually just on paper, and you look at, do you deserve an interview or not, because we got 200 and, I think, 40 applicants, and we can’t, obviously, interview everybody, and we do in-person interviews. I know that’s not the case for most places, but it is important for us to have a face-to-face with the candidate. And I also believe that somebody who’s going to commit six years of their life into an institution should be able to see what’s in there, right? It’s like, you’re not going to see majority of the important things if you’re not there in person. And so, what you have as a research, it could be couple, fine, but then you have to have other things strong. If you have a lot of research—I look at some CV and you see over 10, 20, like an assistant-professor level, and I’ve seen some candidates like that—they just go up on our list automatically. So, how much do you do it and the content of research shows you—because we don’t want to miss people who will be stars in publication and academics, et cetera, and hopefully, we may even retain those people after training—because every institution who’s providing training is interested in people who does research, who does strong research and who has that talent. Not everybody does that, so if you are one of them, make sure that you utilize it in the process of the medical school years. Use it as a tool.

Something I personally check is if they have hobbies. If someone comes to me like, “No, I don’t have any hobbies. I just go to work and come home,” it doesn’t give a good impression. I think IR could be very stressful, and if you don’t have the right tools to relax and find physical and mental regeneration, it could be very challenging for you to continue. It’s physically challenging and mentally challenging, so make sure you have things to do besides the hospital so you can be the best version of yourself for your patients.

I love that you mentioned that. We talked about making sure your CV actually reflects what you’re doing and being really careful, because hobbies, if—at least someone that’s gone through this process—a lot of people look at that section and actually ask questions. I remember I put painting as one of my hobbies, and this was virtual, and people were like, “Oh, you put painting. What’s that like?” And I was like, “It’s actually behind me. This is one of my paintings.” And it was shocking to me, I would say 90% of my interviews, that came up. It doesn’t have to be something like super flashy, like climbing, I don’t know, Kilimanjaro or something. It could be painting, it could be reading. I think as long as it’s something you can speak to, because I don’t know about you guys, but when I interview med students, I kind of see through when they say they do a hobby but they don’t actually do the hobby.

Yeah, yeah. Just say hiking.

It could be even better: “I like to do these things, but I know I’m not going to be able to do it in my PGY-5 and -6 years.”

Yeah, just say if you’re asked.

Let’s take a tiny detour. As attendings, what are your hobbies? What’s the thing that you do to help de-stress a little bit?

Well, I mean, I love playing basketball, and we used to actually regularly play with our trainees. I accidentally broke one of my best residents’ nose. Lately, we have been kind of lagging on that, but we’re trying to revitalize. I play chess every now and then with one of my best colleagues. We do that whenever we get a chance. And then I love skiing, and every winter, we try to do a ski trip with family. Family is obviously, since I had my children, became the number one hobby. And then combining some of what I do with them is very joyful. I have to say that, over the course of years, the time that I spent has gradually decreased, but now the kids are out in college, it’s coming back. Merve, how about you?

It’s a big list. I can tell you that I like learning new things and I’m a little maybe too much. I do a lot of things. I like ballroom dancing. I started learning how to fly. I like skiing and hiking, lifting weights, and painting, just like the abstract painting, so a lot of things. As long as I’m learning something and producing something, trying new things, traveling and trying scuba diving, so, yeah, a lot of things. I make myself busy.

I want to play basketball and go hiking with you guys. That sounds amazing.

Nice.

Awesome.

Dr. Arslan is one of the best basketball players, and he’s really good, and he’s being humble right now. He’s really good. So, don’t play against him; be in his team.

On his team, on his team, of course.

Yeah.

That’s what happens; when you train people, you get a lot of compliments.

No, I’m very serious. He’s really good.

I guess, getting back to those extracurricular activities: leadership roles, volunteering… I know you talked about having—Dr. Arslan, you talked about having a lot of really amazing research publications bumping them up the list. How do you weigh that kind of experience versus the person that has a lot of leadership roles, or they’re really excited with volunteering? How do you guys judge those experiences?

I mean, again, being fully honest, transparent, they’re all important, right? It’s like you look at it, et cetera. That puts you on an interview list, regardless of what you do. If you are kind of shining on one thing and then not really terrible on others, you will be interviewed by many. And then during the interview process, that’s what’s going to determine where you’re going to be on their list. What are your goals, what you plan to do, how do you look at IR, how passionate you are? And then, does your background match with what you’re saying in general? And so those are—none of them is unimportant. Everything is important, but it’s not what’s going to get you into the program stand alone.

What do you think, Dr. Ozen? Anything you want to add?

I agree. I agree. An application is a sum of a lot of things. Just don’t focus on one thing. Make sure your scores are good, which is the first elimination thing, I think, that I observe. And then, make sure you put some effort on some type of volunteering. This could be something in your hospital, local, or in SIR, that’s even better. And make sure you leave good impression to your attendings, have good letter of recommendations. That’s really important as well. The scores at your previous—like college scores and medical—all the scores also matter too. We don’t really judge anyone according to one thing. We want to make sure overall, we’re looking at a decent person.

I’ll make a confession. My Step 1 score was not perfect. It was a 249, which is about average. So, for all those med students out there, when they say “good scores,” it doesn’t always mean that 270 you’re imagining.

Yeah, no, that doesn’t. Mine was the worst. I barely passed. That was years ago. But it’s part of the thing, right? It’s like, you look at the whole CV. We don’t just look at one number and then eliminate that. We had, actually, very strong individuals who don’t have—because some people don’t take tests well, but they’re still very bright, initiative, and investigative—so we don’t eliminate by score only. It’s good to have a good score, it kind of makes it easier, but it’s not essential. If you’re strong in other things, that’ll compensate for that.

And if you guys don’t know about it—

And also—

Oh, sorry. I was just going to say, a resource, FREIDA, is—you can see the average of who matched in IR and what their scores are, if you’re trying to see where you fit in.

And when I look at a CV and I see they did some type of course in AI in college or they have statistics experience, they did engineering in some type of volunteering as a technologist, or if you have any type of additional quality on top of being a doctor, that will be very beneficial, because you can use those qualities and move interventional radiology a little bit further when you’re an attending. Even when you’re a resident. You can use coding or anything that can change our workflow.

One more thing that I may want to add: your interest. Let’s say—this year, we had amazing applicants. They were the top 20, where I would be happy with any one of them. We did match with the top four, so that was great. That’s, like, first time it happened, it’s great. But, I mean, every one of them, we had a very hard time—with, you know, residents, et cetera—to come up with that list. And important things, other than everything else, you’re an amazing person, but you don’t show interest in that program, right? Then I have another amazing person who is also very interested in my program. I don’t want to match 19—I want to match top whatever, 5, 10—and so that’s important. Not to be—in a kind of a bothersome way, but if you are specifically interested, honestly, make sure they know you’re specifically interested on that program. Whatever the reason that may be: geographical, you like the program, you like clinical practice, et cetera. And if you mention those things, that’ll get you even higher up among your own peers in the same level otherwise.

Believe it or not, you can feel if that person wants your program or not. It doesn’t matter—with their body language, you can feel how much they want this program. So, know what you want before going to an interview, or just embrace that energy if you have a couple options.

Amazing. Dr. Ozen, for kind of before they get to that interview, for the people that are thinking about applying and if their GPA is not perfect or they feel like they have other blemishes on their record, how do they initiate that conversation to ask if they should even go into this?

As humans, we have this familiarity bias. We like to be near people that we know, and we want to be familiar with the faces that we want to work with. With an email, just coming and saying hi during a conference, going to medical student symposiums and saying hi to the attendings. If you really want a program, just spend some time during the week as an observer. So, anything you can do to show your face and just get some time with them. Sometimes it’s challenging to do things, so don’t get discouraged. We’ve all been through that. I remember sending 300 emails to get one observership spot. Finally, one of my attendings helped me, but I remember this was like 10, 15 years ago, probably. My hands were tired. I emailed 300 people over one week. So, don’t feel discouraged. Everybody goes through this. Know what you want or where you want, which state you want, which hospitals you want so you can use your energy towards that, and just get familiar with the department and be friends with people who works there. I think that’s the only way.

And if I may add to that, while you’re doing that—those are excellent recommendations—do it in your institution or—because every institution, you’ll only have a month—and then do your best in those. That’s one way. The places that you’re interested and reasonably can get into. And in your own institution, I would put a lot of effort, if you have the opportunity, you have an IR, because recommendation letters are very important. Not only—let’s say you are a student who didn’t perform great on the exam, et cetera, but you’re really interested in IR, you’re very dedicated, and that you’re going to be working very hard—that’s your mind-set—if you perform that in a place with an IR, that IR will carry you, will step up.

It’ll make a phone—not just write a letter, make a phone call—”Hey, this person”—and we sometimes call each other about if there was potential applicants that we’re interested in—”Hey, how was this, et cetera. Your letter says this, that.” If you get the extra bump from that, that may compensate for those score or whatever that may not be perfect.

That’s awesome advice. I remember I did hear my mentor texted the program I ended up in, so that is very real life. I had that experience too.

I promised that I’ll give you the clues for going.

Just to wrap up, we talked about a lot. We gave a lot of clues, a lot of how to help you achieve and match. If you could give one piece of advice to students looking to match, what would it be?

Merve, do you want to start, or … ?

Start early. Start early and use all your time to invest in the things that you want. And have hobbies, have a life. I know this is a very stressful area, but that’s the best—those are the best years of your life. Know how to do things without stressing yourself out. Invest in yourself, get to know yourself. Match is very important, but you’re more important.

Those are excellent recommendations again, but I’m going to add to that. I think I will also declare that IR is not an easy job. It requires one of the most intensive specialties in medicine, depending on how you practice. Yes, you can practice it lightly, aside, you know, going DR and basic IR, but then you’re not going to be—I’ll just say it again: If you’re doing one, two days of IR, in five years, compared to someone who’s doing IR every day, you’re not going to be at the same level. Again, our goal is to get people who wants to do 100% IR, and it’s an intensive work. Make sure you love doing it and you are dedicated to it. Once you are on that page, you take it on, then the rest will be easy. But if you are not right for IR, don’t come in for financial reasons or it sounds cool. Believe it or not, I’ve seen people who went to IR because they thought it was cool, and then they literally fell off.

You need to, from my perspective, I love what I do. Coming to work is like, one of my colleagues said it, actually, what I was thinking: “Hey, I love what I do, and they pay me for it at the same time.” Because you spent 8, 10 hours of your day, more than your family, in this job. If you’re not going to like it, don’t go into it for any other reason. And nowadays, everyone has the opportunity to see if it’s something they’ll like, because you can be in the room as a medical school and as an M1 and then see what’s being done every day, how we live, et cetera. So, make sure that fits your lifestyle and that’s what you want. Once you know that is what you want and you’re dedicated to it, you’ll be able to—people who are interviewing you will be able to understand that. And now you’ll be getting in.

I’m hearing, just to sum up for everyone in the crowd, make sure you really want IR and you love it. That way, the next path gets a little bit easier. And I really love something you said, Dr. Ozen: IR is important, but you are too.

You’re more important.

Make sure you’re taking care of yourself so you can continue on this journey. Because it is a journey. It’s a couple of years after medical school. I would like to thank both of you. Thank you, Dr. Ozen. Thank you, Dr. Arslan.

Thank you.

This was an incredible discussion. And thank you, Cook, for giving us the opportunity to have this and share it with future medical students and residents.

Awesome. Yeah. All right.

Thank you.

Thanks, everyone, for listening. Hope it helps.

Thank you too.